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[PsychedelicEyeball]

I wonder if a more efficient and economical solution would have been to only rely on individual websites and forums for level distribution instead of a main internal level hub which needs to be maintained and paid for. The peer review process would have taken place external to the .exe (as it had on the forums prior to SMW) and the best levels still would have risen to the top.

Considering there's not going to be any online leaderboard, this is what should have been done in the first place. It probably would have been way more reliable and it would have been enough to prevent people from uploading their crappy stages more than 10 times apiece.

Due to the fact that SMW is self-hosted by the developers, there's no telling how long it will stay up indeed, therefore making it so that making levels for the game seem pointless since they may just end up vanishing forever at some point you can't exactly pinpoint. Therefore, the benefits of a file-based way of playing levels outside devmode would be readily apparent.

[RockLeeSmile]

I wonder if a more efficient and economical solution would have been to only rely on individual websites and forums for level distribution instead of a main internal level hub which needs to be maintained and paid for. The peer review process would have taken place external to the .exe (as it had on the forums prior to SMW) and the best levels still would have risen to the top.

Considering there's not going to be any online leaderboard, this is what should have been done in the first place. It probably would have been way more reliable and it would have been enough to prevent people from uploading their crappy stages more than 10 times apiece.

Due to the fact that SMW is self-hosted by the developers, there's no telling how long it will stay up indeed, therefore making it so that making levels for the game seem pointless since they may just end up vanishing forever at some point you can't exactly pinpoint. Therefore, the benefits of a file-based way of playing levels outside devmode would be readily apparent.

So if we're to glean anything positive from this little talk, I'd say it should be... keep your custom level files and back them up. I know it's not much, but I'm doing what I can.

[Stevolutionary]

RockLee - Generally I respond to things that don't effect me personally when the debate is one sided because it frustrates me to see people make sustained, unwarranted, illogical and just plain selfish attacks on things without any merit or response. My agenda is nothing more than to try to rebalance things with a little sanity. I don't include you on that list as you always conduct yourself with fairness and courtesy. Others? Not so much, so they deserve agression back. Just unlike them, I remove the fake-passive part from mine.

Sure, I occasionally use harsh words and tones, but that's because I need to put a counter argument to about 50 walls o' text in a couple of paragraphs, and to strongly word it is about the only way you can do it without responding with line for line rebutalls, which when almost every word is ridiculous, is more efficent to do what Blatch did and just tell people to suck it up.

Long story short - you paid $10 for a game and got at least triple that in the main game alone. Complaining about imperfections in free additions to the the game that have taken upwards of 6 months of time from the development team is the height of childish entitlement. 6 months of development time from 2 qualified devs, I value at about $3000 a month salary per person minimum, so about $36,000 worth of salaried time has gone into the editor and SMW. If even 1000 people use the editor or bought it purely for that feature (and it doesn't seem even remotely that close) that's already over 3 times the retail cost of the main game going into that feature alone.

I don't care if you bought the game on the promise of the editor - you're already getting a ridiculous amount of value for your pissy $10. Team Meat will have already lost thousands on this feature (not to mention server costs) and for what? Miserable ungrateful fucks who do nothing but complain and demand more?

Lets look at those numbers again. This game had racked up over 600,000 sales in about March I think, so that's a conservative estimate. Now compare that with how many people are regularly using the level editor. About 100 max? Now how many of those are disatified? About 10?

Just because they then come here and spam the forum with endless self-pity does not mean they have anything valid to say. In fact, if I was Edmund, I'd just refund all 10 of them their money, and for the low price of $100 pull the rug away from their arguments. Every game has their drama queens who feel their purchase entitles them to a lifetime of slave ownership from the developers pandering to their every whim. This is no different.

All leaderboards in all games are hacked. The focus of the game is not speedrunning either - that's a feature pandering to an incredibly minor segment of the gaming population that is played as a metagame. Leaderboards are included as standard in every XBLA game per Microsoft's orders. You can choose to obsess over your times, that's you choice, but didn't pay for a metagame, you paid for a platformer. Likewise you didn't pay for a level editor, you paid for a platformer.

This will be my last contribution to this debate as I refuse to give these people and their invalid arguments the oxgyen of respectability. I only get angry when selfish people post irrational arguments and act like their being reasonable when they aren't, purely because right minded people generally have better things to do than repeatedly respond to fools and children, so left unchecked, they start to believe they actually have a point as there's no strong counter-argument.

I just try to restore a little balance. 10 vocal people out of 600,000+ sales is nothing and they should be regarded as such, not have their opinions courted.

[RockLeeSmile]

Ok, Stevolutionary. Thank you for acknowledging that I try to be fair, I really do try. Also I can't disagree about your breakdown on the numbers (if only because I have no idea if they are correct). Like I did say before though, I specifically bought the PC version for the editor (which was advertised before release). I already owned the 360 version and 100%'d it. I'm not saying I didn't get a ton of enjoyment out of it, and I even went so far as to 100% the PC version as well. I genuinely love SMB, and it's because of that that I'm worried about if others will be able to find as much enjoyment as I have, later on.

What I'm mostly arguing for here is that in the bigger picture, this game will be left in a state that is enjoyable and complete for people in the future with no regard to the context with which it was originally released. Really that's about it. If it took a year to do, then I'm fine with that, because presumably (and hopefully), I'll live beyond that period of time and get to see the "archival" version of SMB with everything in place and working.

I'm also kind of sad that I had another thread that got deleted (or at least I can't find it) because I spoke my mind about something Edmund said in the closing of the "User Friendliness" thread. I worked on that for a long time and I don't know if he got to read it... my fault for not backing it up I guess, but I didn't say anything worth deleting it over.

[Stevolutionary]

Well, I should have stated this is more in response to the drama that started in the "User Friendliness" thread and the TC's rant than in this topic than anything, and directed more at disgruntled speedrunners than level editors disappointed at what could have been.

I can see your point, but you must also look at this in a cost/reward breakdown from the developers points of view who have rent to pay like everyone else. The users complaining are generally being extremely unrealistic and ungrateful with their demands.

Simply put, what is being demanded and by whom is not worth the time and money it would take to fulfil, and your purchase of $10 does not come with the lifetime enslavement of Team Meat in the T&Cs. There must come a cutoff point somewhere when you hit diminishing returns in a cost/benefit analysis, and we're here. In fact, what gets me so mad, is that was probably hit months ago, yet Team Meat carried on regardless, and for that they should be commended, not called out.

Regarding numbers, the 600,000 is taken from sales figures widely reported in March, the 1000 editors is quite a generous figure admittedly pulled off the top of my head (but by looking at the amount of levels created, I can't imagine this being anything but the absolute upper limit - the real number is probably close to 100) and the 10 angry users are culled from this forum. There's probably only about 20 people seriously speedrunning the game if you look at the leaderboards, and they're playing their own OCD based metagame. They're not representative of the average player who bought this game by a long shot, and the game was not designed with them in mind, and shouldn't be either.

Is the metagame broken? Possibly. Is the game broken? No. Not in any way, shape or form, and that is their only obligation to you, and the 600,000 other purchasers who are generally happy with what they got.

Are the unreasonable demands of an incredibly vocal and shrill, yet miniscule minority worth the team throwing good money and time after bad, expecially when continually insulted by them? No it isn't. Just because they have loud voices doesn't mean they have anything of worth to say, just like a child. It is about a classic case of entitlement you can get.

[RockLeeSmile]

Yeah, I do get it... I guess it's just kind of depressing to look at it just by the numbers (so I've been unrealistically committed to avoiding that) but you're probably right. I think I've said about as much as I can at this point. Although, I'd really not like to believe that we reached that point you mentioned months ago (unless the intention was never to make a portal and level editor at all, in which case, that would then have been fine).

Hopefully this thread doesn't just get A) deleted, or B) slammed by Edmund that we're all whining again (even though he is completely within his rights to do so). I think at the very least we've served to bring up the potential complexity of the issue beyond just whining. I think this makes for some decent reading for fans of the game one way or another.

Public discourse is to be encouraged!

Talk to you all later...

P.S. I'm working on another chapter.
http://supermeatboy.com/forum/index.php/topic,1757.0.html

[Jintek]

RockLee - Generally I respond to things that don't effect me personally when the debate is one sided because it frustrates me to see people make sustained, unwarranted, illogical and just plain selfish attacks on things without any merit or response. My agenda is nothing more than to try to rebalance things with a little sanity. I don't include you on that list as you always conduct yourself with fairness and courtesy. Others? Not so much, so they deserve agression back. Just unlike them, I remove the fake-passive part from mine.

Sure, I occasionally use harsh words and tones, but that's because I need to put a counter argument to about 50 walls o' text in a couple of paragraphs, and to strongly word it is about the only way you can do it without responding with line for line rebutalls, which when almost every word is ridiculous, is more efficent to do what Blatch did and just tell people to suck it up.

Long story short - you paid $10 for a game and got at least triple that in the main game alone. Complaining about imperfections in free additions to the the game that have taken upwards of 6 months of time from the development team is the height of childish entitlement.

Lets look at those numbers again. This game had racked up over 600,000 sales in about March I think, so that's a conservative estimate. Now compare that with how many people are regularly using the level editor. About 100 max? Now how many of those are disatified? About 10?

Just because they then come here and spam the forum with endless self-pity does not mean they have anything valid to say. In fact, if I was Edmund, I'd just refund all 10 of them their money, and for the low price of $100 pull the rug away from their arguments. Every game has their drama queens who feel their purchase entitles them to a lifetime of slave ownership from the developers pandering to their every whim. This is no different.

All leaderboards in all games are hacked. The focus of the game is not speedrunning either - that's a feature pandering to an incredibly minor segment of the gaming population that is played as a metagame. Leaderboards are included as standard in every XBLA game per Microsoft's orders. You can choose to obsess over your times, that's you choice, but didn't pay for a metagame, you paid for a platformer. Likewise you didn't pay for a level editor, you paid for a platformer.

This will be my last contribution to this debate as I refuse to give these people and their invalid arguments the oxgyen of respectability. I only get angry when selfish people post irrational arguments and act like their being reasonable when they aren't, purely because right minded people generally have better things to do than repeatedly respond to fools and children, so left unchecked, they start to believe they actually have a point as there's no strong counter-argument.

I just try to restore a little balance. 10 vocal people out of 600,000+ sales is nothing and they should be regarded as such, not have their opinions courted.

In response to your implications of "selfishness" and whatnot.  

First off, nobody is demanding anything beyond what was advertised and what is not working correctly.  It's perfectly logical and rational to demand that content (as a consumer) isn't half-assed, isn't faulty, and isn't below the quality line which was advertised.

All I've ever asked for is a non-bugged game, and the same features the XBLA version has...period.  There's nothing selfish about expecting my game to work 100%, not 80% or 70%.  Aside from the user-created content avaliable, please enlighten me on exactly what features we're demanding that wasn't advertised, promised or paid for basically on the premise of future updates?

The level editor was advertised, the portal was advertised, A+ and completion was initially said to be coming in an "update".  There's nothing selfish about expecting those features to be up-to-snuff.  And concerning your implication that "the game is worth triple what you paid for it"...that's subjective sir and not valid to base a general argument on about this.  And again it's irrelevant to the facts, especially considering as I've already said these features were advertised and promised on the premise "you buy X game, you get X features when ready".  That's pretty objective and all we've been asking.

But let's break it down a bit more, let's assume that the editor/portal wasn't advertised as part of the package and was indeed "free".  Then we come to the issue of stability and bugs...which are still a HUGE issue for many paying customers...regardless of the price paid or value.  Let me ask you personally, how many times have you experienced the "mini-dump" since first launching the PC game?  How many other critical glitches/bugs have you experienced?  Did you pay for that, or in your mind is that the price we pay for a "product worth triple it's price".  We pay for games on the premise/assumption that we'll have a smooth and great bug-free experience as long as we meet the spec requirements...we don't pay for bugs/glitches/etc.  And we expect them to be fixed promptly if there are problems, this hasn't happened w/ the PC version.  Leaderboards are a HUGE part of the game, without them Meat Boy wouldn't be what it is.  And even so, part of being successful in the market is meeting customers' demands to an extent.  You listen to your most devoted fans and try to deliver a product they want, especially post release...ask Bungie.  Completely aside from added content I might add.

I don't put Team Meat on a pedestal, I expect the exact same quality and technical support as any other developer.  Vice versa if this was EA/Nintendo/Capcom I'd be saying the exact same things.  I entered into a financial transaction w/ Team Meat on the premise of a fully functioning 100% product (including the editor/portal), I still haven't received it on PC...I still get bugs/glitches/crashes.  I am more than in my moral/social right to be upset and to demand it be fixed.  If that's a selfish mindset to you, then I don't know what to tell ya'.  I'm not asking for any huge radical features here, I'm asking for what I paid for...and I don't want a refund.  The fact that Team Meat is a two-man team w/ limited resources isn't my problem, this isn't a buddy system or "it's okay hit me back later" or charity, if you advertise something and under-deliver in a market expect to be called out for it.  If you deliver and it isn't up-to-spec, expect to be called out for it...goes for anybody selling a product/service no matter how big or small.  Team Meat got paid, but expecting a rabid fanbase to roll over and except critical bugs/glitches etc doesn't fly, doesn't work that way...it's the fans who end up getting crashes not Team Meat.  So calling fans who want a product that works 100%, as well features promised to work 100$ "selfish" is ignorant pretentious bullshit...no offense to you.  

All in all, I love Super Meat Boy (I purchased many copies) but that doesn't mean I'm gonna sit here and smile when the game doesn't work 100% for myself or fellow gamers.  I just try to be honest and call a spade a spade.  It's like if you purchase a cheaper car, and half the time it turns off on you or won't start...it doesn't matter if it was "worth triple the price".  Or if the manufacturer promised a newfangled muffler, radiator or tinted windows and it turns out to be faulty shit...you're gonna be pissed and show them the contract.  Or if it takes them five months to fix the engine or change the oil, same premise.  This is a product on the market, and should be treated as such (that goes for every videogame).  We don't grant concessions or wave away BS because it's a small team or hard times.

I can live without A+/completion/perfect editor etc, but I do want a bug-free product.  That's not asking a lot, and it certainly isn't selfish or being self-entitled.  I am entitled to a 100% functioning product and so is everyone else who bought the game.  And like it or not that's the bottom line.  

[Stevolutionary]

Jintek - I see your point, but I just believe it was a case of them overcommiting and possibly making too generous promises they didn't realise they would be hard pressed to keep (especially regarding deadlines) They did so in good faith though and above and beyond what was needed, so I regard anything past the core 310 levels as a bonus.

As a reasonable person, I am happy to give them a bye, seeing as the core product is excellent and I have had incredible value for money as is, and the alternative is to expect them to work for free for another 6 months just to make a minor difference in a budget product that I bought that I will probably won't even be playing at that point. That, to me, is extremely unreasonable to expect two people to slave away for free for months for something that will make an incredibly minor difference in my life overall and when I already have had more than my value for money. Only an asshole would.

Should the fact they're just a two man team and not an EA sized monster with 100,000 employees and a billion dollar turnover not make a difference as you say? I disagree. Have a bit of fucking perspective. Or do you hold the local indepenent store to the same obligations as Wal-Mart too because they're both technically stores? Only an asshole would.

Regardless your comparison with a large developer is one sided anyway. Yes, EA may have fixed the bugs quicker, but they would never have developed the game in the first place or added a level editor or SMW for free. Any reasonable person understands you don't get both, so doesn't make such stupid comparisons or demands based on such.

If you wish to wave your $10 reciept in the air and claim ungraciously that still entitles you to all this, then fine. But legally you have no leg to stand on (pre-advertised or not, 'free' features are still free, and thus you legally did not pay for them - more fool you if you did) and IMO, ethically you don't have a leg to stand on either as explained above, so I just object to the high horse and endless drama, and believe this is the product of a ridiculous and corrosive culture of entitlement that infests society.

If someone came to you with a similar complaint at your business, you'd tell them to fuck off, and I'm glad Team Meat have essentially done the same.

[The_End254]

snip

Couldn't have said it any better

All I've ever asked for is a non-bugged game, and the same features the XBLA version has...period.

This part especially, it's not much to ask.

[Jintek]

^^^I do agree that Team Meat promised a lot more than they could reasonably deliver.  I completely understand that from a personal standpoint.  Maybe it was just to squeeze a few more sales, maybe it was genuine but all in all I still love the vanilla product.  For what it's worth I do share your view that it was worth a lot more (without the features).  If Team Meat were to come out and flat out say "Hey, we just don't have the time, energy or resources to deliver what we said.  We're genuinely sorry and we hope to do better next time".  I would absolutely understand and even respect them for coming out and saying that, especially for the fans.

But I mean features aside, my main issue remains stability.  I can live with exactly what we have now as long as the stability and bugs are fixed.  I do think no matter what the sales were, or anything else that the fans do deserve at least that, I do feel we're entitled to at least that.  I don't think that's a lot to ask.  

Stemming from that, I don't mean to appear like I'm singling out Team Meat for bugs, they've got a lot of company in that regard.  I think especially this generation dev's have been basically given a free pass to say "well it's buggy, we'll release it now fix it later" and that's a terrible thing for us consumers.  I think as innovative as the Steam model is, they ought to start vetting every new game and putting a red disclaimer next to every "order" that the game is buggy and buyer beware.  Especially considering how the PC market in general has turned into a bug-infested troubleshoot guaranteed cesspool.  I think that's a good step for us gamers in terms of commercial support, because as of now dev's are more catered to than gamers.  But anyway, arbitrarily promised features aside the game like many others turned into a technical disaster transitioning to a PC port.  So if anything I do feel that Team Meat is obligated to fix at least that.

[DD Commander]

this entire thread: tl;dr

[Stevolutionary]

So if anything I do feel that Team Meat is obligated to fix at least that.

I terms of crash bugs, I agree. That's integral, but I don't see anywhere where they have said they won't eventually fix them. There is an update in the works.

My ire is with people demanding changes and updates to the leaderboards and level editor despite them being free and only appealing to a vanishingly small percentage of the audience, and incurring a ridiculous and disproportionate level of cost to benefit. That's where the entitlement lies, and that's where the team stated they were done.

They've already pushed the boat out at great personal expense, and are under no obligation, legal or ethical, to do more in that area. Their only 'crime' is possibly being over-optimistic about what they could deliver in a limited time and budget, and one which only an asshole would condemn them for when it was done for the low price of zero.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how not being able to record times for fan levels or hacked leaderboards are almost the end of the world for some. They need to man the fuck up and get a less pointless hobby, and as about 20 individuals out of 600,000+ have no right to claim they represent anyone other than themselves or have the moral right to hold the team hostage on these issues.

[RockLeeSmile]

this entire thread: tl;dr

Oh c'mon, don't be lazy.

There are some good points in this thread!

[QcChopper]

I haven't played SMB since Edmund said completion/A+ probably won't be in SMW. I have no intention of playing this game again even though it's one of my favorite games of all time, unless of course TM adds A+ amd completion status/times.

These events have antagonized me as a fan, this is how I feel and I just can't help it.

[Maruhai]

there's only about 10 people maximum complaining about the game

Nope, I know more than 10 persons who are complaining about that.