next »

[Stevolutionary]

Discussing the topic of religion in a civil manner.

Dissent does not equal lack of civility, as long as it isn't backed with insults. If you're secure in your views, you can certainly deal with having them stand up to public scrutiny.

I believe in the freedom to believe in what you want, but not the freedom from having your opinions challenged, especially if those opinions inolve the moral judgement of others.

[PiDuT]

Root of all evil?

[Stevolutionary]

Religion is a method of social control that uses the carrot (heaven) and the stick (hell) to manipulate the fearful and the weak minded.

It lays claim to morality while promoting hatred, and lays claim to universal truths while promoting unquestioning thought - exactly the qualities you'd expect from the product of a society 2000 years behind ours socially and scientifically.

It persists because it is a self replicating meme. Essential to the threats and rewards is the nessecity to convert others. It's nothing more than a supernatural chain letter that manipulates people's fear of dying, and childish narcissism that they are not just a short lived animal living on a rock floating in space - despite overwhelming evidence that proves otherwise.

I don't believe in god and I don't believe in an afterlife, and the burden of proof is on the believer, not the disbeliever. Separate to this however is the fallacy that either are good or desirable to begin with.

The god of the Bible is the most evil character in all of fiction. Murderous, vengeful, genocidal, petty, arrogant, insecure, cruel and proud of it all. People worship him out of fear, not love, and demand the same from us so they can escape his wrath through their moral cowardice.

Eternal life likewise is the worst hell you could ever imagine, and only something the truly ignornt would wish for. Imagine existing for a billion years, long after you have exhausted every single possible human activity and varition of it. Now imagine that only encompassed a billionth of 1% of your life, and you're not even close to imagining the nature of infinity.

Religion is false, it provides no answers, empty threats and ill-thought out rewards. It is also cyclical. Religions constantly rise and fall. Modern Abrahamic religions (Christianity among them) have been around for about 2,000 years - only 1% of our entire existence as a species - and will vanish in time as all others invariably do, to be regarded by future generations in the same way we do the followers Zeus.

Meanwhile science marches on impassively, bringing genuine enlightenment and reduction of suffering through technology.

I've set a few talking points, but doubt i'll contribute further, simply because if previous experience is anything to go by, most of the counter arguments will be logical, historical, or scientific fallacies, and as stated before, the burden of proof is with the religious, not with the disbelievers. It isn't necessary to defend my position.

[TadejVig]

Well, personally I don't believe in religion as I find the whole idea laughable, but I let people believe in what they want and I try not to judge them.

But I do really hate the fanatics, who push their religion on other people and even kids (just watch Jesus Camp... horrible).

[Getaro]

Religion is false, it provides no answers, empty threats and ill-thought out rewards. It is also cyclical. Religions constantly rise and fall. Modern Abrahamic religions (Christianity among them) have been around for about 2,000 years - only 1% of our entire existence as a species - and will vanish in time as all others invariably do, to be regarded by future generations in the same way we do the followers Zeus.

Meanwhile science marches on impassively, bringing genuine enlightenment and reduction of suffering through technology.

It's quite the thing. From my perspective I think religion came up to answer questions that knowledge couln't answer. Where do lightnings come from, why do people get diseases and so on.

But I think some parts of some religions at some point came up due to people knowing that people follow religions almost blindly, so they use religion to manipulate the people.

[CaRniVoRe]

I actually have a strange view on religion. First off, I don't believe in organized mainstream type religion. I believe it is a form of control and nothing more. All the religious texts were of course scribed by man, and I dont trust man.

Now that being said, I still believe in god. Don't really know why. I wasn't pushed into going to church as a kid. I wasn't told "God Loves You" every day. I wasn't warned by being told, "You shouldn't do that or you will GO TO HELL." I did however attend a few churches as an adolescent. I found it all boring. Not to mention the fact that religion (at least Christianity) seems to teach people how to judge others, even though that it is in fact a sin in their eyes. Hypocrits much ? (I realize this may not describe all Christians and that it most likely doesn't. So dont get emo.)

God to me could be anything. Maybe it's an all powerful being. Maybe it's an alien ? Maybe its just an energy that exists in all forms of life. OR, maybe God is just an idea. Something used to guide people. I think people who PRETEND to know what or who god is are completely ridiculous. That isn't faith. You believe in ur god as if it was fact.

Now I agree with most when I say, believe what u want. People shouldn't go around pushing their religion on others.

In all honesty my assumption is religion was purely based on sun and star worship in the beginning. People who understood "the heavens" (the sky stars etc) could predict certain occurences because they understood astronomy. They became "holy men". They realized it could be used as a form of control and that people will believe whatever you want them to believe. All one had to do was predict a "miracle" and the masses were dumbfounded. All pretty evil stuff imho.

But yea God should be to a person whatever it needs to be. To pretend to understand the being energy or concept is complete BS. Only 2 people know the nature of god. God.... and Chuck Norris. He obviously has met him. *random roundhouse kick* 

[Stevolutionary]

Religion is false, it provides no answers, empty threats and ill-thought out rewards. It is also cyclical. Religions constantly rise and fall. Modern Abrahamic religions (Christianity among them) have been around for about 2,000 years - only 1% of our entire existence as a species - and will vanish in time as all others invariably do, to be regarded by future generations in the same way we do the followers Zeus.

Meanwhile science marches on impassively, bringing genuine enlightenment and reduction of suffering through technology.

It's quite the thing. From my perspective I think religion came up to answer questions that knowledge couln't answer. Where do lightnings come from, why do people get diseases and so on.

But I think some parts of some religions at some point came up due to people knowing that people follow religions almost blindly, so they use religion to manipulate the people.

I still state it has no answers. Historically it tried to, but failed. Now it just looks silly even trying.

[MegaMew]

1) All religions are bogus.
2) If you don't agree with #1 then I'm cool with that.  As long as you're cool with me.
3) Religion is a good way to help people follow good moral code.
4) Religious nuts suck not because they're religious, but because they're nuts.
5) To reiterate #4, extremists of any kind suck.
6) The idea of atheism is stupid because it implies that not believing in a god affects the way said person runs their life.
7) 1-6 are my opinions.  If you disagree that's cool but don't be a dick.

[Drandor]

Hmm, religion.

I'm fine with what people believe in as long as they don't try to force it on anybody, myself or others regardless.

I don't believe in God myself, not in the way that "he helps us humans rise to a higher plane of existence" and blah blah blah, since if he did exist like that, there wouldn't be wars, crime and such.
I believe that me may be there, but only as a form of fate or coincidence, maybe to help us but in mostly minor ways.

[SatoruKimu]

Just read about the incident happened on java island, where an Islamists group of over hundrets of people punched 3 men to death, only because the leader of them said they were "non-believers".

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Java,-1500-Muslim-extremists-attack-an-Ahmadi-family:-three-dead,-cars-and-houses-in-flames-20706.html

Really, this makes me really want to go insane.

[LeetFruitBoy]

I'm Christian, but not the super religious type.

Though I do pray a lot and sometimes they do get answered.

And what have I got to lose?

Also yes I hate fanatics. The bible to me is more guidelines than it is FOLLOW THIS OR YA'LL DEAD.

That said, I classify myself as a ChristTroll
Christroll: Trolls Arrogant Athiests as well as uber religious Christians. Also to the people who say theres no proof. Theres a reason why it's called faith. ಠ_ಠ

[Stevolutionary]

I'm Christian, but not the super religious type.

Though I do pray a lot and sometimes they do get answered.

And what have I got to lose?

Also yes I hate fanatics. The bible to me is more guidelines than it is FOLLOW THIS OR YA'LL DEAD.

That said, I classify myself as a ChristTroll
Christroll: Trolls Arrogant Athiests as well as uber religious Christians. Also to the people who say theres no proof. Theres a reason why it's called faith. ಠ_ಠ

I imagine your prayers are not answered more than they are, which simple statistics should tell you you're just kidding yourself. Also by admitting you've nothing to lose is stupid - you have your identity and your intellectual freedom to lose, the only things you truly ever own. Pascal's wager is one taken only by someone with no integrity.

Secondly the guidelines the Bible sets out are horrible, and even the good ones are all obvious and instinctive and ALL pre-date it and are regularly practiced by people who have never even read it (more so in fact) You've stated you're gay in another thread, and the Bible hates that, so i'm assuming you're picking and choosing? In which case, again you're picking at the buffett, and if so, you really have no remit to debate ideas you only half believe in yourself.

Lastly atheism is not arrogant. The truth is objective not subjective. Arrogance is taking a religion and choosing the pieces you you wish to apply to yourself then discarding the rest, and believing in an omnipotent being who according to dogma never intervenes due to granting free will, and assuming he makes special interventions in yor life out of 6 billion (including many suffering greatly) and that you could possibly pull the wool over his eyes with Pascal's wager.

Telling someone who is wrong that they are wrong is not arrogance. Believeing that a being of infinite power and knowledge is not only easily fooled by fake belief, but also takes a special interest in your life out of many billions is arrogance of an unbelievable and unbalanced magnitude (and a complete ignorance of probability theory)

[electric_shaman]

I imagine your prayers are not answered more than they are, which simple statistics should tell you you're just kidding yourself. Also by admitting you've nothing to lose is stupid - you have your identity and your intellectual freedom to lose, the only things you truly ever own. Pascal's wager is one taken only by someone with no integrity.

Calling someone's beliefs stupid. Not cool.

Secondly the guidelines the Bible sets out are horrible, and even the good ones are all obvious and instinctive and ALL pre-date it and are regularly practiced by people who have never even read it (more so in fact) You've stated you're gay in another thread, and the Bible hates that, so i'm assuming you're picking and choosing? In which case, again you're picking at the buffett, and if so, you really have no remit to debate ideas you only half believe in yourself.

That's like saying if Muslims don't go around blowing themselves up in the name of their religion, then they can't be real Muslims. Religion, from what I know, is open to interpretation; specifically the Bible in this case. I don't care what you think about that, I'm just saying, in this case, you are wrong in your statement that "the Bible hates that" (homosexuality).

Lastly atheism is not arrogant. The truth is objective not subjective. Arrogance is taking a religion and choosing the pieces you you wish to apply to yourself then discarding the rest, and believing in an omnipotent being who according to dogma never intervenes due to granting free will, and assuming he makes special interventions in yor life out of 6 billion (including many suffering greatly) and that you could possibly pull the wool over his eyes with Pascal's wager.

Again, insulting his beliefs by calling them arrogant. Not cool.
Also imposing your own beliefs on what religion is onto his, not surprising I suppose since your entire post is about attempting to impose your beliefs on others.
 

Telling someone who is wrong that they are wrong is not arrogance. Believeing that a being of infinite power and knowledge is not only easily fooled by fake belief, but also takes a special interest in your life out of many billions is arrogance of an unbelievable and unbalanced magnitude (and a complete ignorance of probability theory)

Again, imposing your beliefs and insulting his. Not cool.


I don't care how much religious types piss you off, you can't just attack someone's beliefs in that manner.

[Stevolutionary]

Whether it is cool or not to insult someone's beliefs is neither here nor there. It doesn't effect what is real and what isn't. What is true and what isn't. Science discriminates against all invented worldviews equally.

And no, religion is not open to interpretation. Spirituality is, but set religions are not. I'd wager I know far more about the Bible than you do and could quote you page after page of where homosexuality is calssed as an abomination, and death is the punishment, not least of all tale of Sodom and Gomorrah where god essentially calls down a fucking meteor to wipe out a city because they were gay.

If beliefs are ignorant, bigoted and taking the world backwards, then I have every right to attack them, regardless of whether that is cool or not.

[electric_shaman]

Whether it is cool or not to insult someone's beliefs is neither here nor there. It doesn't effect what is real and what isn't. What is true and what isn't. Science discriminates against all invented worldviews equally.

And no, religion is not open to interpretation. Spirituality is, but set religions are not. I'd wager I know far more about the Bible than you do and could quote you page after page of where homosexuality is calssed as an abomination, and death is the punishment, not least of all tale of Sodom and Gomorrah where god essentially calls down a fucking meteor to wipe out a city because they were gay.

If beliefs are ignorant, bigoted and taking the world backwards, then I have every right to attack them, regardless of whether that is cool or not.

Look, I don't care what you think, I have no interest in your argument.
I do care that the forum has rules against attacking others beliefs and general douchbaggery. And stating that you have the right to do something, because you do not respect somebody's beliefs, I'm pretty sure is classed as douchebaggery of the highest order.


But in the interest of debate, how come  you seem to rely solely on science for answers? Is that not just as close minded as blindly following a religion? How can you close your mind off to one way of thinking like that?