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[electric_shaman]

This is why leaderboard participation should be optional like it is in world of goo.  If you participate, you are held accountable for your actions and can be banned at any time from participating.  My suggestion above still stands, the addition of participating at the cost of wiping out all your times can certainly be added for those unwilling to start over (and really unconcerned with leaderboards in general).  There is some coding involved of course, but most of it should already be made into classes and functions already, especially after the addition of the level portal.  I don't think my idea is at all out of the question or unreasonable and would be more than happy to moderate it so Tommy and Edmund don't have to.

I'm editing this in for good measure... those of us who are die-hard about our times will gladly redo any and all levels even at the pain of reliving them again.  Granted it does suck, but a lot of us are more than willing for a clean leaderboard.

Another way it could work is if the current leaderboards were left as they are, but "Championship" leaderboards were added in a patch. These would be a brand new, blank slate set of boards, that are more tightly moderated, and participants are held accountable a la World of Goo like you mentioned.

Edit: it'd also be interesting /  make sense if the "Championship" leaderboards were only for Meat Boy.

[valzi]

roboticaust and FlipTaco are both making great arguments. Hopefully there's a way to fix this without resetting the boards, so it won't even matter. 

[roboticaust]

This is why leaderboard participation should be optional like it is in world of goo.  If you participate, you are held accountable for your actions and can be banned at any time from participating.  My suggestion above still stands, the addition of participating at the cost of wiping out all your times can certainly be added for those unwilling to start over (and really unconcerned with leaderboards in general).  There is some coding involved of course, but most of it should already be made into classes and functions already, especially after the addition of the level portal.  I don't think my idea is at all out of the question or unreasonable and would be more than happy to moderate it so Tommy and Edmund don't have to.

I'm editing this in for good measure... those of us who are die-hard about our times will gladly redo any and all levels even at the pain of reliving them again.  Granted it does suck, but a lot of us are more than willing for a clean leaderboard.

Another way it could work is if the current leaderboards were left as they are, but "Championship" leaderboards were added in a patch. These would be a brand new, blank slate set of boards, that are more tightly moderated, and participants are held accountable a la World of Goo like you mentioned.

Edit: it'd also be interesting /  make sense if the "Championship" leaderboards were only for Meat Boy.

Without some clear way of seeing their run, moderation would be difficult at best.  Still would need to implement a ghosting feature that uploads only if you make it into the top nth specified place on the level.  Moderation on it could be as simple as allowing users to flag ones that are iffy and moderators deleting the time and banning certain players from posting entirely or marking the run as legit so it cannot be contested further (to avoid spam and moderating stuff that's already been moderated).

[McJones]

I voted to reset under the assumption that there would be no way to accurately weed out the fraudulent times. However, if there is a way, that would of course be preferable.

My suggestion awhile back was to finish the ghosting feature already in game for replays and bosses like Dr Fetus and Brownie.  Sorta like Mario Kart where you can see the ghost of your previous fastest attempt.  The code actually saves most runs in an extremely small format that could append rather easily to a file and also submitted online in the process.  In this manner, you could race other players ghosts or your own, also you could have a system setup to hold the top 25 or so for a level with only the top 10 available to the player.  Any flagged as non-legit could be moderated and that user banned from future submissions to any leaderboard.  Reason I picked 25 was so that if one is removed, a valid top 10 could still exist.  It would take very minimal server space and very minimal bandwidth.  But in order to do something like that, a patch would have to come about that force resets every level with a time submission element.  This would make it possible for people with incredibly fast times to actually be able to submit a ghost and would also discourage a lot of cheaters from putting forth the effort to cheat again.

I absolutely love this idea. With replays already being implemented into the game, it doesn't seem that far-fetched. This is probably the best anti-cheating idea I've heard thus far.

[LeetFruitBoy]

Yes.

with a capital Y

[valzi]

I absolutely love this idea. With replays already being implemented into the game, it doesn't seem that far-fetched. This is probably the best anti-cheating idea I've heard thus far.

Agreed. Roboticaust's system seems like it would work well so long as there are no overlarge technical hurdles.

[roboticaust]

Another thing I would like to touch down on, Tommy and Edmund originally were planning on doing this but opted not to because they thought the flood of replay submissions would cost them too much as far as server space goes.  I'm suggesting a much tighter submission that would be minimal space at best.  They also said they settled with the current system because they felt it would be more fun for users to question times and figure out the tricks for themselves.  But to be honest, most of us speedrunners can look at the leaderboards and see a specific character high up in the list and experiment for a few minutes at best to figure out what was done and how it works.  A ghosting feature would only save the average time whore maybe 5 minutes per level they haven't dominated prior.  Plus several levels have methods that the average player couldn't replicate without the reflexes of a golden god and the patience of a saint.  Not to mention, a lot of us time whores post our techniques on forums and youtube as it is.  EmmaWatsonsBF is a perfect example of this.  Excellent player but bares his techniques without hesitation because he knows most players won't be able to do what he has.

Another thing I would like to touch on, most hardcore time whores will typically play most levels hundreds of times to get the best possible time, even if it means just to shave off a few milliseconds.  I doubt many of us would be butthurt at all with an optional time wipe to be allowed to participation on a new leaderboard setup.

[roboticaust]

I absolutely love this idea. With replays already being implemented into the game, it doesn't seem that far-fetched. This is probably the best anti-cheating idea I've heard thus far.

Agreed. Roboticaust's system seems like it would work well so long as there are no overlarge technical hurdles.

These are things that exist in the game already.  It's what fuels Brownie and Dr Fetus.  The only technical hurdle is making a seperate function to handle passing the data into other functions without passing it into the level clear function like the replay currently does (hence how it loops when it hits bandage girl).  That way the ghost doesn't trigger a level clear for you.  **I'm editing in this next part**  This is why those two examples above do not have bandage girl objectives since it would cause chaos without making a special function to bipass that aspect of the game.  Also, let it be noted that replays do NOT save every single attempt regardless of what you may believe.  There is a limit to how many get saved into a replay and I have hit that limit dozens of times trying for rather difficult speed runs.  So setting up a function for a single ghosts that shows a semi-transparent sprite that doesn't have any collision detection with the players sprite and doesn't clear the level by touching bandage girl is not out of the question; nor is appending/submitting that single ghosts sequential file to a server and a file on the users end.

I do not agree with character specific boards, as it would be a pain in the ass to moderate.  Nor do I agree with Meat Boy only since the leaderboards currently are not limited to only him.  Although, I am thinking a participation requirement might be to have Golden God already, making it less likely people will willingly cheat just to get onto the newer boards and less likely that people without the ambition to compete will be willing to reset their clears just to participate.  Simply put, this would put players with clear skill and determination in higher regards to the majority; which makes for a functioning leaderboard.

[valzi]

I do not agree with character specific boards, as it would be a pain in the ass to moderate.   Nor do I agree with Meat Boy only since the leaderboards currently are not limited to only him.

Makes sense (as does everything else in your post before here.)

Although, I am thinking a participation requirement might be to have Golden God already, making it less likely people will willingly cheat just to get onto the newer boards and less likely that people without the ambition to compete will be willing to reset their clears just to participate.  Simply put, this would put players with clear skill and determination in higher regards to the majority; which makes for a functioning leaderboard.

Seems like overkill by quite a lot to me. A lot of us that are very into leaderboard competing do not have Golden God. If we want to limit who can be on the board though, several achievements seem relevant. The work required to complete 10 retro warp zones, or to unlock Naija (50 bandages), or to beat the light world seems like enough to mark a user as unlikely to cheat. Also, I personally didn't care about or feel practiced enough to do well in the leaderboards until a little after Naija and after I beat the light world. Perhaps it's not so exclusive/mean to other players to wait for a more midway point like that.

That said, using an achievement marker to allow leaderboard participation seems like a practical way to make moderation really easy.

[McJones]

I do not agree with character specific boards, as it would be a pain in the ass to moderate.  Nor do I agree with Meat Boy only since the leaderboards currently are not limited to only him.  Although, I am thinking a participation requirement might be to have Golden God already, making it less likely people will willingly cheat just to get onto the newer boards and less likely that people without the ambition to compete will be willing to reset their clears just to participate.  Simply put, this would put players with clear skill and determination in higher regards to the majority; which makes for a functioning leaderboard.

Yeah, I think anyone who is concerned with their leaderboard rank will/has put in the effort to get golden god. At the very least they should have 90 bandages, since Captain V is essential for speed running several levels.

[valzi]

I've been speedrunning for a while and just now got Captain Veridian today. 

[The_End254]

There should be an option to reset you own time incase the game glitches etc.

[roboticaust]

Well then, captain v unlock to open it up or defeat the end dark?  I still think golden god is the way to go since most super hardcore speed runners have dominated the game and are spamming level clears to get better time and more longevity out of the game itself.  I haven't seen any competitive players who lack it to be total honest.

At any rate, this is all suggestions.  None of what I'm suggesting is guaranteed to come to pass (and odds are, none of it will).  But the leaderboards are the game mechanic I find both the most enjoyable and the most aggravating.  If it were fixed and for good, I would play the game religiously beyond my already 150+ hours.  Hell, if it were fixed in the manner I've suggested, I would pay another 15 bucks to play the patched version without hesitation.

[roboticaust]

Heh, that's actually not a bad idea... Super Meat Boy: Extra Meaty Edition.  Come on Team Meat.  You know you would put in the extra work if we paid for it

[roboticaust]

Just thought of a more genius and less work intensive solution to moderation.  Maybe instead of having someone or a group of people moderate it, there was a thumbs up and thumbs down vote based on steamid.  If a ghost has more than say 100 thumbs up to thumbs down, it would be marked safe and the top 10 safe ones could be stored in reserve in case any bullshit times that get rejected right away crop up.  And anything with 100 thumbs down to thumbs up could be removed.  Could also intelligently allow the safe ones to still be allowed ratings so if they come into question, they can ultimately be removed.  I highly doubt a group of hacking trolls are going to outvote a group of annoyed fans.  Plus allowing further votes could help a safe one get even more recognition to solidify it further as being legit and here to stay until someone knocks it out of the top 10.

I know, I'm going overboard; but I love brainstorming.  I just hope Tommy and Edmund stumble into here instead of overlooking it.  I guess I could just go annoy Edmund on aim and demand he look, but that's not my style