next »

[Zombie_Plan]

3 if you count Portal, 4 if you count Portal 2. They aren't FPS, but First Person Puzzle Games, which are different in gameplay.

:P

Except you use a portal gun.  You shoot portals.  Turrets shoot you.  Its not a First Person Puzzle game, its a First Person Puzzle Shooter, which is what makes it so unique.

Besides, arguing technicalities isn't going to make me love Valve all of the sudden, since no matter what logical loops you try to spin 90+% of their library are still FPS games that I find no pleasure in.

We weren't trying to make you love Valve, we were simply pointing out that your generalized statement was wrong, no matter how you try to defend it now. Sorry for the miscommunication.

[MegaMew]

3 if you count Portal, 4 if you count Portal 2. They aren't FPS, but First Person Puzzle Games, which are different in gameplay.

:P

Except you use a portal gun.  You shoot portals.  Turrets shoot you.  Its not a First Person Puzzle game, its a First Person Puzzle Shooter, which is what makes it so unique.

Besides, arguing technicalities isn't going to make me love Valve all of the sudden, since no matter what logical loops you try to spin 90+% of their library are still FPS games that I find no pleasure in.

We weren't trying to make you love Valve, we were simply pointing out that your generalized statement was wrong, no matter how you try to defend it now. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Whatever.  I thought I had made it pretty clear that I knew there were a couple exception within my first rebuttal post.  Its probably my fault for not being clear or whatever.

[Zombie_Plan]

3 if you count Portal, 4 if you count Portal 2. They aren't FPS, but First Person Puzzle Games, which are different in gameplay.

:P

Except you use a portal gun.  You shoot portals.  Turrets shoot you.  Its not a First Person Puzzle game, its a First Person Puzzle Shooter, which is what makes it so unique.

Besides, arguing technicalities isn't going to make me love Valve all of the sudden, since no matter what logical loops you try to spin 90+% of their library are still FPS games that I find no pleasure in.

We weren't trying to make you love Valve, we were simply pointing out that your generalized statement was wrong, no matter how you try to defend it now. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Whatever.  I thought I had made it pretty clear that I knew there were a couple exception within my first rebuttal post.  Its probably my fault for not being clear or whatever.

The point is while Valve used to focus purely on First Person games, they are clearly branching out now, thus making your statement redundant. You made a statement which was then pointed out as being wrong. Instead of accepting this, you proceeded to say something along the lines of "they don't count" and dismissed them. This made your "rebuttal" have far less impact.
Additionally, a lot of companies tend to focus on one particular niche; Pop Cap do casual games, iD Software tend to lean towards First Person Shooters, and so on. I feel this topic has been beaten to death, as we have covered that Valve don't just do First Person Shooters (And several subgenres of), but also do First Person Puzzle Games, Top down shooters, and soon to be an "Action RTS" (As Wikipedia classifies DOTA2). So let's move on.

I'm personally wondering where they can possibly go for TF2. I mean, it's a great game, but eventually the capabilities of their engine (I heard something about a new generation of Source) will exceed that game, and their community will start to shrink. So it makes me curious as to whether they'd drop the franchise completely, or move onto Team Fortress 3. I mean, Monday Night Combat seems to be a great moving point from TF2, but it's not something under the Valve name so it won't really count.

[MegaMew]

The point is while Valve used to focus purely on First Person games, they are clearly branching out now, thus making your statement redundant. You made a statement which was then pointed out as being wrong. Instead of accepting this, you proceeded to say something along the lines of "they don't count" and dismissed them. This made your "rebuttal" have far less impact.
Additionally, a lot of companies tend to focus on one particular niche; Pop Cap do casual games, iD Software tend to lean towards First Person Shooters, and so on. I feel this topic has been beaten to death, as we have covered that Valve don't just do First Person Shooters (And several subgenres of), but also do First Person Puzzle Games, Top down shooters, and soon to be an "Action RTS" (As Wikipedia classifies DOTA2). So let's move on.

I'm personally wondering where they can possibly go for TF2. I mean, it's a great game, but eventually the capabilities of their engine (I heard something about a new generation of Source) will exceed that game, and their community will start to shrink. So it makes me curious as to whether they'd drop the franchise completely, or move onto Team Fortress 3. I mean, Monday Night Combat seems to be a great moving point from TF2, but it's not something under the Valve name so it won't really count.

Nevermind, You clearly don't get what my point was.  I'm done here.
As for TF2, Valve is a smart (and kind) company.  Aside from L4D, they've done a good job of not ripping off their fan base.  When they have enough content that they want to add to TF2 that can't be done with a simple update they will make the switch to TF3.

[DD Commander]

The point is while Valve used to focus purely on First Person games, they are clearly branching out now, thus making your statement redundant. You made a statement which was then pointed out as being wrong. Instead of accepting this, you proceeded to say something along the lines of "they don't count" and dismissed them. This made your "rebuttal" have far less impact.
Additionally, a lot of companies tend to focus on one particular niche; Pop Cap do casual games, iD Software tend to lean towards First Person Shooters, and so on. I feel this topic has been beaten to death, as we have covered that Valve don't just do First Person Shooters (And several subgenres of), but also do First Person Puzzle Games, Top down shooters, and soon to be an "Action RTS" (As Wikipedia classifies DOTA2). So let's move on.

I'm personally wondering where they can possibly go for TF2. I mean, it's a great game, but eventually the capabilities of their engine (I heard something about a new generation of Source) will exceed that game, and their community will start to shrink. So it makes me curious as to whether they'd drop the franchise completely, or move onto Team Fortress 3. I mean, Monday Night Combat seems to be a great moving point from TF2, but it's not something under the Valve name so it won't really count.

Nevermind, You clearly don't get what my point was.  I'm done here.
As for TF2, Valve is a smart (and kind) company.  Aside from L4D, they've done a good job of not ripping off their fan base.  When they have enough content that they want to add to TF2 that can't be done with a simple update they will make the switch to TF3.

What do you mean? I have both L4D and L4D2 and I never felt cheated. The atmosphere feels much different and the characters are generally likeably except for Rochelle. "By the beard of Zeus this hurts!" line for her having low health 

[Zombie_Plan]

The point is while Valve used to focus purely on First Person games, they are clearly branching out now, thus making your statement redundant. You made a statement which was then pointed out as being wrong. Instead of accepting this, you proceeded to say something along the lines of "they don't count" and dismissed them. This made your "rebuttal" have far less impact.
Additionally, a lot of companies tend to focus on one particular niche; Pop Cap do casual games, iD Software tend to lean towards First Person Shooters, and so on. I feel this topic has been beaten to death, as we have covered that Valve don't just do First Person Shooters (And several subgenres of), but also do First Person Puzzle Games, Top down shooters, and soon to be an "Action RTS" (As Wikipedia classifies DOTA2). So let's move on.

I'm personally wondering where they can possibly go for TF2. I mean, it's a great game, but eventually the capabilities of their engine (I heard something about a new generation of Source) will exceed that game, and their community will start to shrink. So it makes me curious as to whether they'd drop the franchise completely, or move onto Team Fortress 3. I mean, Monday Night Combat seems to be a great moving point from TF2, but it's not something under the Valve name so it won't really count.

Nevermind, You clearly don't get what my point was.  I'm done here.
As for TF2, Valve is a smart (and kind) company.  Aside from L4D, they've done a good job of not ripping off their fan base.  When they have enough content that they want to add to TF2 that can't be done with a simple update they will make the switch to TF3.

lol

Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 were a natural progression. People hated on L4D2 because Valve promised to continue producing stuff for the original, and this made people think they were abandoning it, which as they proved, wasn't the case. They still had DLC to release, which they have.
However, L4D2 is a great sequel, and while similar in a lot of ways, was definitely worth the transition. I'm looking forward to the next batch of DLC to come our way, as detailed on the L4D Blog :)

[NovaSilisko]

I really just wish they'd step up their support for modding tools...the source code hasn't been updated since 2007 or so...trying to make a mod for source now is like trying to push a brick through a wall with your face.

[Zarkith]

I really just wish they'd step up their support for modding tools...the source code hasn't been updated since 2007 or so...trying to make a mod for source now is like trying to push a brick through a wall with your face.

http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1058327-Gabe-Newell-on-Hammer-and-the-SDK

[Zombie_Plan]

I really just wish they'd step up their support for modding tools...the source code hasn't been updated since 2007 or so...trying to make a mod for source now is like trying to push a brick through a wall with your face.

http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1058327-Gabe-Newell-on-Hammer-and-the-SDK

It can only be assumed that once Portal 2 comes out, it'll come with a new version of Source, and as such the SDK. We can only wait.

[LeetFruitBoy]

I really just wish they'd step up their support for modding tools...the source code hasn't been updated since 2007 or so...trying to make a mod for source now is like trying to push a brick through a wall with your face.

http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1058327-Gabe-Newell-on-Hammer-and-the-SDK

It can only be assumed that once Portal 2 comes out, it'll come with a new version of Source, and as such the SDK. We can only wait.

Still though, the things HAMMER can currently generate are simply amazing.

anybody else here familiar with the dear esther remake? Google it my friends.

[Zombie_Plan]

I really just wish they'd step up their support for modding tools...the source code hasn't been updated since 2007 or so...trying to make a mod for source now is like trying to push a brick through a wall with your face.

http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1058327-Gabe-Newell-on-Hammer-and-the-SDK

It can only be assumed that once Portal 2 comes out, it'll come with a new version of Source, and as such the SDK. We can only wait.

Still though, the things HAMMER can currently generate are simply amazing.

anybody else here familiar with the dear esther remake? Google it my friends.

I'm taking a look at it on Desura as we speak.

[Insani99999]

Valve is the most epic big game maker/publisher in my opinion.
They listen to the community, and never disappointed me with their games.

I was supportive of them all the time.

Until Mann Co came out.

Now I hate Valve.

Code:

                         ........................:+II??7ZI..:,..............                       
                         ............,=?I.....,:++=?IIIOO$?+=+++++?,...  ...                       
                         ..........:?++I$$$DDO+++III+7$O$I??+?III7OO7.... . ....    ....           
                         ...:+?7ZD$~=++I7Z8?=~=~++I7$$$7??I++IIIZO8ODD......    ........           
                         .?+==?IZO+==I?I$I=?=++?I777$777??++?IZZ$$I+++=I=... ...........           
                .........+~==+?7Z++++?I7I=I?II?777$$7I7I?++?77I?++=+I??7??7ZO88O7+,.,........       
                .......,?~==~?I$I++++?I7IIII77$$Z$$7???????77???+++++????III7?I$888$?:.......       
                .....:??I+==+?IZI+?II7I$I??I7$$Z$7?I??+?I$I7II=+?+?+++?+?IZ8$777II$D8OI=.....       
             ......~==++Z++==?$Z7I?+I?I$I??III777I7I+?7II7$7I?+=+++++?+$$DI7I?????IZODDOI:.......   
            .....7+?=~~I7++++I$$$III$7?77?7$888$Z7II?7I77$7I++====+??I8D$?+I??+?++?IOOD88I7......   
        . ......?=??+?I?$$+????77$$77IZOODDD8D8DDDO7I7777I?I??+++???ZN7???=~+++++++?IZOD888I........
        . .....+=II++?II7OI7???7Z$7ZZOOODD8DDDDDDDDDOZI$$7II?++++IOD$+7I???+??+??+++?7O888887.......
        . ....=?I?+=??$7I$ZZZ7$7$OO88OOD88O8OO8OOZ$ND$77OZ$7I7$Z88ZOZ$7I?+?II????+?I7I$888D8OI.... .
        . ...:I?IIII777+?I$77I77ZO88DODD$I7ZZ$Z$777DD77IIZOZZZ77II7$$Z$III?I????II?I77$O888D8$I... 
        .....7?II?II$7++I7ZZ$7$$$O8DDD88ZI?IIII?I?ZDDI7??7Z88??????I7Z$$7IIIIIIIIII77$ZO88DD8DI=.. 
        .....$?7?II?II+??I7$$$ZZ$O888877$I??II??+$78ONO?IIZD?I=???I77Z$77III?7777I7$7$O888DD8D$?....
        .....77I7II??II?7$$ZZ$$$$Z8DDD8D$8N8888OIDN7NDZ?I7Z8??++?II77Z$$7?77I7$$ZZZZZZO8DDDDD8OI....
        . ..,7$$7I7$I?+I7$ZZOZZ$$OO8DNNOZ7OOZZ$D$7I8N7?I?$OZ?????II77OZ7$$$$$ZZZZZZZOO8DDDDDD8O7....
        ....?I$Z$7$O$?I?7ZZZZ$$7$$ZOODNDNZ77$I77$ZZDM?II7O8ZI7???II7$OOZ$$ZZOOZZOOOO88DDDDDDDD$7. ..
        ....~Z77$$ZO7?III7$Z$$I7$Z8Z$DD888OO77DN$ODNNOI$88O$7I?II77$ZOOOOOO8OOOOO8O888DDDDDDDZ?~....
        .....O$$$ZZ$I7+III$$$7I7$7ZOODDDDDM88Z$ONNNNN$7$$ZZZ$7777$$$ZOO8888888888888DDDDDDDDDNII....
        .....OO$ZOZ7I77?77$$$7I777$ZOODN8DDD8I8Z8NNNDDZ$Z$ZOZZ$$77I$$Z8888888888DDDDDNNDDDDDDD8?=...
        .....OZOOZZ$7$$77I777II7$$$Z$$ZNDD888$ZZO$8DDDO7Z$Z$$O$7III$$O8DD8888DDDDDDNNNNDDDDDDDO?7...
        ....$7ZZOOZ$$Z$Z$$7IIII77I$$$ZZODND888Z8Z77$$7I$Z$ZZZ8O7+II$ZODDDDDDDDNNNNDDOOO8D88DD8$I?=..
        ...?7$$$ZD8ZZZZZOZ77??II7I$OZZ8ONNDDD8OOZ$OND8ZZZ$$$Z88Z7$ZO8DDDDDNNNND88DDDZOOO8D8DD7IIII..
        ..+77$$$Z$OD8OOZ$ZZZ$II77Z$ZO$Z88DDN88OOZIODD8OOOO$ZZZ88OZ8DDN8DDN8ZZZZOO8DOZZOODDD8$8DOI?+.
        ..II$$$$$$$ZDNDDDOZZZ$Z$$77I7$$OOOD8D8Z$OO$O888OZOZZOOOOZ8NDDNDNDOZZZOOO88OZZZZ88D888D8N$I?,
   ......?II7$7?$$$$ZDNNNNDO$$7$$$$$$ZZZZZ8D88$O8888DD8OZZZOOOZZZO8Z$$Z$$$$$$ZZZ887ZZZO8DD8OOO8DDI7~
   .....II7I$777$ZZ$ZZDDNNDDD$$7777$$$$$$$Z88DOZZOZ$ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ88OZ$$$$$7777ZOOZ?$$ZO8D8OOO888DII?
.  ...,+$$77$77$ZZZZZZ8DDNNNNN$$77777777$ZOO888$Z77777777$$$7$$ZODOZ$$$$7$I77$$Z7?7$ZOOO888OO888DI7,
.......$O77$777$ZZZZZO8DDNNNNDIZ$77777777777ZOZZZ$7777$7777$ZZZZO88$$$7$$77$7$Z$77$Z$ZZO888OO88DD7+.
......7$O$7$777$ZZZZOODDDDDDNOI.$$7777$$$ZOZO8DO$$777777$$$$ZOZO88N7$7$7$77$$$O7$Z$ZZ$ZO88OOO8DDD?,.
.....:$OZ777777ZZZZOO8DDDNDNDI,..:8$ZZ$$ZZZZO8DD8Z$$$$$$$$ZOOOO8DDN7III77777$$ZI7$ZZZZZOO88O88DD8I..
.....$$Z777ZZ$ZZZZOO88DDDNNDI=.....7O$ZZO8ZODDNDD8Z$$$$ZZZOO88DNNND7III777777$ZI77$ZO$OO88888DDD8I:.
....,$8$77Z$ZZZOOOO8DDDDDND77.......7ODD888NNNDD8DND8OOOO88NNNNDDDD7$I77$$$$$Z$$777ZOOZO88888DND8?=.
....OZI7ZZOZOZZOOO88DDDNDNII,..... ...88O88DDD88DDDDDDDDNNNNNDDDDDO$$7Z$$$ZZZZ$OOOODZZZZ8888DNDDZI:.
...~Z7ZOO88OOOOOO888DDDDD?+........ ....:Z$$$$$ZOO88D88DDDDDDDNDDD8$$$$$$ZZOOO$$ZZZZZZZODDD8DDD7?I..
...DZZOO88O8OOO888DDDDDD$,. .          ...777I7$$$ZZZZZZ8DDDDDNNND8$$Z$ZZOO8OZ$$$$ZZZZO8DDD88D7II7..
..=8$7$O88OD8888DDDDDNNZ.. .           ...O777I77$$$$ZZOOO8DNDDDDDD$ZZZZZO88O77$$$ZOO8DDDDD8DDND?:..
..OD77ZO888O8DDDDDDDD8I~.. ..         ..  .O$7$7$Z$$$ZZOOOO8NDNDDNN8ZZOOO88Z$$$7ZZZ8DDDD8DDDDDNDO...
.:$877ZZZO8888OO8O8DZIII....              ..DOZZZZOZZZOOOOO8DNNNNNNNOOOO8O$$$7I7ZZ8DDN8$ZO8DDDDN8...
.7O8$$Z$ZZODD8OOOOO8ND8I:...              .,:IZ$OO88OOOO888DDNNNNNNNN88OZ$$$7$7ZOOD8DDOZOOODDDDN8...
7$OO$7Z$ZZOOD88OZOOOD8NI+...              ..,..IZZOOOOOO888DDDNNNNNNNN8Z$Z$$77$Z888OOOZOZOODD88DD...
?ZZ$ZZZZ77Z88888OOOOODD7? ..                ....8888DDD88DDDDDDNNNNNN8$$$$$7$Z$DD8O8OOOOOOO8D888D8.
?ZOZZZ$Z7$O888O88OOO8DD$I .                . ..8NNND8DDDDDDDDDNNNNNNNO$$Z$Z$$Z8D8OOOOOOOZOO88D8DDO..
7ZOOZZ$Z$$Z888O88OOO8DD$7..                . .NND8O8DNNNDDDDNNNNNNNNN$ZZ$ZZZZOZZOOO8OOOOO88OO8ON8O:
?OZZO8OZ$ZO8D88O888O8DD77.             ... .MDOOZOOO888DNNMNNNNNNNNN8$Z$$ZZZZZZZO888OOO8O888D88NNZ,
=OZZ8D8OZO8D888OO888DND77.  .          ...,DOOOOOO8O8DD88DDNNNNNNNNN$Z$Z$ZZZZZZO8OO8OO888DDDNDNNN8,.
.O87OOO8O888O8DOO8888DN7I.  .    .... . .:8OOZOOOOO8DDDNDD8DNMNNNDNO$$7OOZOOZZZOOOOO8OO8DNDDNDNM~...
.O8Z$8OOO8OOO8D8ZO8DDDNII .      ....  ..DOOOOOOOOOO8DDNNDDNMNNNNNO$$$ZZZOOZOZZZOOOOOO8DDDDNNNOI....
.ZZOZZOOOOOOO8D8OOO8DDDI:. ..    .... ..~D8OOOOO88888DNNMMMMNMMNND8$$Z$ZZZOOOZZZOOOOODD8Z8DDN?I,.. 
.?$OOOOOZZOZ88888OO8DDDI..       .... ..O8OOOOOO8888DDNNMMNDMNNMND8$$OOOOZOOZZZOOO88DDOOO8DDDI7.. .
.,ZZOOOZZ$ZZ888D8888DDZ?..       ....  .OOOOOOOO8DDNDNNDO7??77=.MO8ZZ88O88OZOZOOO8OODNZ88DDN7I,....
..Z$ZOO8OO$OO88888D8DDI...       .... .ZO8OOOO88DNNNMNMMM$II?...M88OO8OO8OZZZZO888O8DDZOODNZI?.....
..I$ZOOO8OZZO888888D8$7.....       ...,D888888DDNNNNNMNM8?I:....N888O8OO8OZZZZOO888DDOO88D8II...   
...OZOOO888OO888D88DZI~.....     .....$88D888DDNNNNNMND7I:......88DO8O8OOOZOOO8888DD888DN$I7... .   
...?$ZOO8888888D8DDDI7...         ...+D88888DNNNNNNDO?I=........+888O$OOOOODO888DDND888DOII......   
...~ZZO888888OONNDDD??. .        . .,D88D888DNNNND$II=...... ....D8O8OOOOZZ8D8DDDNDDDNDD?I:......   
....ZZO888DDDDNDNDDD?:...          :DD88888DDNDNOII7.... ........DD8OO8OOZZ8DDDNNNDDDDD7I....       
....ZOOO8DDDDDDDNDND7=...        ..ODDD888DDNNNO7I+......... ....D8OOD8OOZO8D88DNNDDN8$I,.. .       
....OOOO8DDNDDDDNDNN$~...        ..MDNDDDDDNNNNNDD7,........ ....MO8888OOO88888DDDDDN$I,.....       
....8OO8888DDDDDDNNNM7...        ..$MDDDDDNNMMMMNMDI........ ....NN888O8OO8O88DDDDDNZI.......       
. ..8O88888888DDDDNND8I....      ...$DDDNNNNNNNMNM8I,....... ....$8DD888OO8888DDNDN$I..... ..       
....O8O88888888DDDNNDDNI.....    ....88DDDNNDDNMNMZI.. ..... ....DOD8D888O8888DDND8I.........       
. .:OO888DDDD8ND8DN8NDDDI...... ......,NNNNNNNNNNM$I:....... ....DDD88O8888888DDNN?=....           
. .8OO8D8DDD8DDDDNNDDNDN7...... . .... ,NDNNDNDNNNZO7,...... ...I88DD8OO888888DDZII....             
..Z888DDDDDDDDDDDDDNDNNNZ+..... .   ... .NNDNNNNNMMDM7~...... ..DDD8DO88888888DDOII...             
..ND8DN88DD8DD8DDNDDNDDN8I..... .      . DNDNNNNNNMNNN7.........M888888888888DDD8I?.               
..MNDDNDDNDDDDD8NDDNDDDNNI..... .     . . MNNNNNNNNMNMM7.......~D88D88888888DDDDDI?.               
..D8NNNNDDNDDDND8DDNNDDN8?..... .        .7NNMNNNNMMMMNDI.. .,M8ND8D88888888DDDNDII.               
.,?NNNDMDNNDDNNDDDDDNNDM$:. .         .   .MMDNNNMMMMMMMI...:D8D8D888888888888DDN$I. .             
...7MNDNDDDNDDNNDDNNDNNZ, . .    .....    . DMNNNNMMMMMMZ~+7NN88DDD8888888888888DDI=.........       
....ODDNND8DNNNDNDDNNNO,....     ..... .,:=?77NNNMMMMMMND$IID88DD8DDD8888888D888DDI777+ .....       
....NDDDDD8DNNNNDDDNNNO.....  .,~7777I77777$NDNNNNMMMMMMM$77DND8DNN88DDDDDDDDDD8DN8777I7$.. .. .   
....MDNDDD8DDDDNNNNDDD=,~I7777II777777IZDDMNDDNMNMMMMMMMN87$8DMNNNDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDNI77II7$77  .     
....ND8DDDDDNNDNDNDDN777I777777777I777DDNNNDNNDMNMMDNMMNZ7II8NND8DD8DD8DNDDDDDDDDNNI777777777+ .....
...~N8D8DDDNND8$$DMNNZ777777777777I777NNDDMMMNMNNN8I77$777I78DNDDDD88D8DDDNDDDDNNNNI777777777I7~....
 ..,DDDDDDNNMND8DZODDNI$I77777777I77777I?7ZDMMDDI777777I7777ID88NNNDDDNDNDDDDDDDNNNI777777777I77I...
 ....IMNDDNNMNNDNNN8$8$7I77777777777777777777777777777777777IODDNNDDDNNNNNNDDNNNNNNI777777777II?~...
.......:..INNNDND$II++==:::,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:~=????=======++??OMNDDDNDDDNDDNDDNNNNNN77777777777I?....
.... ................. ..   .                 ....     .    .~DNDDDN8DDDDDDDDDDDNNN$7777777777?.   
        ........                                           ...ON8DDDD88DDDDDDDDNNNNZ77777777$,..   
        .....                                              ....,ND8DD8DNN8DNDDDNNNNO7777777?.. .   
                                                           ....,NND8D88DDDDNDDDNDNN8OII77=. .       
                                                           ...,ONDDDD8DDDDDNDDDNNNNDZ7$~.. ..       
                                                           ...8NZ..N888DDDDNNDDDNNDN......  .       
                                                                   ~8DDNDDDDNDNDNN?.               
                                                                   .8D88DN88DNNDD~..               
                                                                   ..8D8~.....,..  .               
                                                                   ...:.............       

To the good days of Valve, before MannCo.

[Zombie_Plan]

Until Mann Co came out.

That's just it though, Mann Co changed nothing. They still offer all their updates for free. In fact, now they have more incentive to bring out updates, they're happening more often.
Remember when people complained that it had been MONTHS since a content update? Now we see them fairly often, and for that I'm grateful.

You do not have to use the shop in order to play the game. In fact, I largely ignore it and just play. It's still plenty of fun, and it hasn't been ruined at all.

[MegaMew]

Until Mann Co came out.

That's just it though, Mann Co changed nothing. They still offer all their updates for free. In fact, now they have more incentive to bring out updates, they're happening more often.
Remember when people complained that it had been MONTHS since a content update? Now we see them fairly often, and for that I'm grateful.

You do not have to use the shop in order to play the game. In fact, I largely ignore it and just play. It's still plenty of fun, and it hasn't been ruined at all.

You know you don't need to debate this so adamantly right?  These people don't like TF2 and their minds aren't going to change.  You do like TF2 and your mind isn't going to change.  They have their reasons and you have yours, but what I see is you trying to prove that their reasons are wrong.  Just because you "disprove" their reasons for disliking the game doesn't mean they're going to start playing again.

[Insani99999]

Until Mann Co came out.

That's just it though, Mann Co changed nothing. They still offer all their updates for free. In fact, now they have more incentive to bring out updates, they're happening more often.
Remember when people complained that it had been MONTHS since a content update? Now we see them fairly often, and for that I'm grateful.

You do not have to use the shop in order to play the game. In fact, I largely ignore it and just play. It's still plenty of fun, and it hasn't been ruined at all.

You know you don't need to debate this so adamantly right?  These people don't like TF2 and their minds aren't going to change.  You do like TF2 and your mind isn't going to change.  They have their reasons and you have yours, but what I see is you trying to prove that their reasons are wrong.  Just because you "disprove" their reasons for disliking the game doesn't mean they're going to start playing again.

Too many hats, too much trading, too many set hats that are hard to get unless you pay for them, etc etc.

I liked TF2, I do not approve of this... thing that has taken the place of TF2.