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[Zombie_Plan]

Zombie_Plan there are 4 Pure Upgrades,

Amputator

Holy Mackerel (The counter doesn't display a kill on a DR set off)

The Special Delivery Set Bonus (Not having a HM even though in theory there the same weapon makes you lose the 25 Hp)

The Medieval Medic Set Bonus (Not having The Amputator but the Bonesaw makes you lose +1 Hp Regen)


+ The 3 Set Bonuses that are pure upgrade because someone has the hat.


The Tank Buster
The Croc-o-Style Kit
The Special Delivery

If you read my post, I already stated the Amputator is the exception, and it's a borderline exception. See, while it has no immediately attached downside, the fact that you have to taunt to use it's effect presents it's downside. If you were to use that effect, you are rendered immobile for a few seconds, which leaves you an open target for EVERYONE. That is technically it's downside to balance it. However, everyone agrees it needs a little more.

Holy Mackeral is not an upgrade as it does nothing extra; the DR set-off is a bug that will most likely be fixed, as are most DR related bugs.

The Special Delivery set bonus grants 25 HP, yes. However, you sacrifice both your weapons for a slightly stronger pistol. The lack of a secondary go to weapon, and the fact the Short Stop is a weaker choice than the Scattergun, make this a balanced addition.

The Medic's set bonus has the downside of requiring you to use the Crusader's Crossbow, which while it has a nice healing effect, is reasonably ineffective in 1 on 1 battle. This is reasonably balanced as a set, due to the firing rate reduction.

The Tank Buster set is an interesting one. While you get that sentry resistance buff and healed with every rocket that hits a target, there are other downsides. You've lost a single rocket, which is more devastating than you'd think. Also, you've sacrificed your shotgun for an item that is only effective when you've taken an awful amount of damage, and when you're in a group defending. The Battalion's Backup as such is very situational. This is balanced because of those.

The Croc-o-Style set is another simple one to point out. You receive the inability to die from the first headshot, which SEEMS unbalanced. But if you stopped and thought about it, to get that ability, you have to equip three weapons. The first stops YOU making ANY headshots. The second gives you 25 health BUT is useless apart from, in comparison to the Jarate and SMG. The Bushwacka might grant critical hits on jarated enemies, but gives you a fire vulnerability. Those negatives more than balance this set. In fact I feel this one is mildly underpowered.

You'd already mentioned the Special Delivery once. Why again?

Finally, for those who state the Equalizer is an upgrade, I have to say NO. When active, it grants faster movement and more damage the lower your health. This should be obvious; the only time this is effective is when you are almost dead. If I see a soldier with the equalizer moving rather quickly towards me, I shoot him. He'll be dead long before he reaches me.
Secondly, it has a more psychological effect on others. If a medic tries to uber the soldier, and he accidentally breaks the uber by bringing out the equalizer, that medic will now think twice before healing or ubering that soldier.
This more than balances that weapon.

So basically, I disagree with everything you stated.

[Cheeseburger Supreme]

I play TF2 a lot. Hell, I have over 1000 hours on it. I can see why some people wouldn't like the game. There is a lot of bullshit in it. But think about it. For 3 years Valve gave tf2 free updates, and they never asked anything from us. By having thinkgs where you preorder other games to get hats, it helps other develpopers get money and continue making games. Hats have actually helped people. The store is just a way for Valve to actually make a profit off of the game. When you think about it, your not actually required to buy anything(even though there are times where it seems so). But there are wyas around it. If you really wanted a weapon, and you thought hats were useless, you can simply trade your hats for weapons. I've done a few times, and I can asure you, it's hilarious to see the entire server send you trade requests. I'm not going to force you to play it, but it bothers me when I see people get upset like this because some people don't want to go bankrupt.

[Poppet]

All I was trying to say was that they are pure Upgrade in comparison even if the set is awful or pathetic.


A Scout with 125 HP verus a 150 HP Scout with the same items but a Milkman how is it fair that the Scout gets a pure upgrade.



Also I put up the Special Delivery twice because of the Hat bonus and the HM verus Bat in the terms of the Set Bonus.

[Sr. Domi]

Things that I loved from TF2 and why I was playing it:

- Free updates where the only money Valve could get from TF2 was more and more sells from making a better game.
- Not too much weapons: only the ones that every class need and a lot of them change their gameplay.
- Every huge and important update had its own page, talking about new features, weapons, and for every day while the update, showing a new thing.
- Other things like "Meet the" videos.

Now is:

- Updates just for adding more items and get more money.
- Crossover items with other games. Is really so important TF2 to get promotional items with other 10 games?
- A lot of crappy weapons making the game not more new-player-friendly.
- Horrible new items that f***** with the arrt-style and they are only to get more money. They even sold a... item that makes a sound 25 times. That costs money. Oh god.
- The Haloween "Boss" and the medieval mode sucks.
- 1,5 years without a "Meet the".
- The chat is spamming with people trading things. I want gameplay, not "tradeplay".

Good things VS a lot of really bad things. Also, this:

[LordSturm]

I really loved TF2 pre-Mann Co. update because of how simple it was to pick up and play.  Sure, I didn't have all the items back then (and I still don't have anywhere near as many items as the game shipped with back in 2007), but I liked playing it because it didn't require grinding to get anywhere and it was simply fun. Nowadays I feel that that core gameplay is still there (and that's why I still come back to play it from time to time), but covered by the inherent grinding involved in getting the hats and weapons and such. 

Example: during the whole "soldier vs. demoman" contest (I think that was long before the Mann Co update tho), the item that was all the rage was the demoman's meele weapon, the Eyelander, and it was brutally overpowered.  Everyone had one and everyone abused it, and it was just generally a pretty lame time.  Eventually they balanced the sword though, and then all was well, but it just always feels like there's something that I don't have that everyone else does that makes the game seem just a little unfair.  I dunno, that's just my opinion though, not nearly as qualified as some other people in this thread.

[Zombie_Plan]

All I was trying to say was that they are pure Upgrade in comparison even if the set is awful or pathetic.


A Scout with 125 HP verus a 150 HP Scout with the same items but a Milkman how is it fair that the Scout gets a pure upgrade.



Also I put up the Special Delivery twice because of the Hat bonus and the HM verus Bat in the terms of the Set Bonus.

They are not pure upgrades. The thing is the set without the hat is a bad loadout. If you use that set without it, then you're going to be at a disadvantage anyway. They have too many negatives, which is why the hat gives a bonus.
How many people run around with the backburner? Not many, because it has too significant a negative.
How many people run around with the Special Delivery sans-hat? Not many smart players, because it's not a good set compared to say, Scattergun+Pistol+Sandman.

What you're doing is complaining about something that shouldn't be done in the first place, like complaining that a Rocket Jumper+Gun Boats+Shovel loadout is too underpowered. It is something that simply should not be done.

[miX_]

I used to love this game so much. It was perfect with the Medic update. When I say perfect, I actually mean perfect (to me, anyway). Everything was balanced. The Kritzkrieg kicked ass. The Ubersaw felt so amazing to have after unlocked all those achievements.

They should have stayed with that system of unlocking. Maybe lower the # of achievements needed, but that's about it. No random crap. Just unlocking weapons. Who cares if everyone spent the first 2 days grinding to get them. It stopped after 2 days. There was no idling. There were no AFK people in your game trying to get items. There weren't 500 trade requests a minute.

It was simple, it was balanced, and it was perfect.

After playing this game exclusively since the beta pre-order, I recently uninstalled it. It makes me sad because I had so much fun playing it, but the game is not was it used to be. Which is fun.

[Zombie_Plan]

I really loved TF2 pre-Mann Co. update because of how simple it was to pick up and play.  Sure, I didn't have all the items back then (and I still don't have anywhere near as many items as the game shipped with back in 2007), but I liked playing it because it didn't require grinding to get anywhere and it was simply fun. Nowadays I feel that that core gameplay is still there (and that's why I still come back to play it from time to time), but covered by the inherent grinding involved in getting the hats and weapons and such. 

Example: during the whole "soldier vs. demoman" contest (I think that was long before the Mann Co update tho), the item that was all the rage was the demoman's meele weapon, the Eyelander, and it was brutally overpowered.  Everyone had one and everyone abused it, and it was just generally a pretty lame time.  Eventually they balanced the sword though, and then all was well, but it just always feels like there's something that I don't have that everyone else does that makes the game seem just a little unfair.  I dunno, that's just my opinion though, not nearly as qualified as some other people in this thread.

Actually funnily enough sir, they did jack shit to the Eyelander. Go back through the notes and you'll see they actually buffed it so it absorbed the heads of other demomen.
What happened was noone knew how to fight against it, and as such had a hard time fighting. Now we know how to deal with it, it's easier. There were no nerfs/balancing issues, it was just adjustments.

[Zombie_Plan]

I used to love this game so much. It was perfect with the Medic update. When I say perfect, I actually mean perfect (to me, anyway). Everything was balanced. The Kritzkrieg kicked ass. The Ubersaw felt so amazing to have after unlocked all those achievements.

They should have stayed with that system of unlocking. Maybe lower the # of achievements needed, but that's about it. No random crap. Just unlocking weapons. Who cares if everyone spent the first 2 days grinding to get them. It stopped after 2 days. There was no idling. There were no AFK people in your game trying to get items. There weren't 500 trade requests a minute.

It was simple, it was balanced, and it was perfect.

After playing this game exclusively since the beta pre-order, I recently uninstalled it. It makes me sad because I had so much fun playing it, but the game is not was it used to be. Which is fun.

They did lower the number of achievements. And Valve said they liked that people grinded. As long as they were playing the game and enjoying it they didn't mind.
They added random drops for in future when we got other items. Imagine if we had achievements added EVERY TIME they added one or two items? It would get as ridiculous as the amount of hats in the game.

As for trading, we can't blame Valve. The community have been screaming for trading since it was first hinted during the Sniper/Spy update. If we had of told them we didn't want it, they wouldn't of implemented it. Because we demanded trading, we got trading.

As for the store, that was also something people have been suggesting for a while. The idea of being able to OPTIONALLY throw a few dollars at Valve for the hard work they've done seemed and still is, quite a nice idea. I'm enjoying myself as much as ever.

[Zombie_Plan]

- Updates just for adding more items and get more money.
- Crossover items with other games. Is really so important TF2 to get promotional items with other 10 games?
- A lot of crappy weapons making the game not more new-player-friendly.
- Horrible new items that f***** with the arrt-style and they are only to get more money. They even sold a... item that makes a sound 25 times. That costs money. Oh god.
- The Haloween "Boss" and the medieval mode sucks.
- 1,5 years without a "Meet the".
- The chat is spamming with people trading things. I want gameplay, not "tradeplay".

- They still update for fun and for free. The store simply serves as yet another OPTION for getting your items. We now have achievements, drops, crafting, trading and a shop, all of which will get you weapons. It's up to you which one you choose to use. The shop has not made it so you can "Pay to win", and it has not made Valve money-hungry. We still receive just as much if not more free content as before.
- Crossover items get others games noticed more, and there is nothing wrong with them. Personally, I like the things I got for preordering Poker Night, and the MNC stuff helped tip the decision on whether or not I should buy the game (I was having trouble).
- We'll see whether or not the game is no longer "new player friendly". With training and offline practice, it's hard to say it's not. I'm giving the game to my brother tomorrow, so I'll be able to see firsthand if it's new player friendly or not :)
- It's their decision what the art style is. Personally I haven't seen anything AT ALL that looks out of place in game. I don't see something and think "Ew, what the hell is that?". The noise makers were a cheap little promo item for halloween you could of OPTIONALLY bought if you wanted to be festive.
- Now this is uncalled for. This is simply opinion. Many people liked the idea of the HHH, and just because you didn't like it doesn't mean it sucked. It just means you didn't like it. The same goes for Medieval Mode. Some people like 24/7 2Fort, others like fighting giant spooky monsters.
- Obviously you don't pay attention to happenings in the community. Apparently the Meet The Pyro is done, but they're keeping that one until last. Also, Meet The's are just promotional videos and have nothing really to do with the game itself. Therefore, this doesn't really belong here either.
- Not the games fault, but the players fault. Do not condemn the game because you don't play on good servers. I only ever see trade spam once a week or so, and it's very minimal.

[Haskell.txt]

Just yesterday, I fired up Team fortress 2 to give it one last chance. Within moments I was held at gunpoint by Valve's Robin Walker. Forced to read aloud all of the trade requests I found and respond AND buy all of their store weapons (Gameplay? More like RICH PEOPLEPLAY) I had no choice but to grin and bear with it. During my bihourly 30 second break, I looked up and saw his face, clouded from all of the advertisements for other shit games. It wasn't a face at all, but rather a large cash sign. He looked down on me, novelty-sized checks falling from his massive, money-induced girth. I cried out "WHY ARE YOU SUCH A SELLOUT WHORE I DO NOT WANT NEW CONTENT" to which he responded by slapping me with the back of his hand, knocking me out.

I awoke later with my neckbeard shaved and wearing nothing but a barrel in front of a soup kitchen. The barrel was filled with welfare checks.

Overall, this game really hasn't aged well. 6/10

[miX_]

They did lower the number of achievements. And Valve said they liked that people grinded. As long as they were playing the game and enjoying it they didn't mind.
They added random drops for in future when we got other items. Imagine if we had achievements added EVERY TIME they added one or two items? It would get as ridiculous as the amount of hats in the game.

As for trading, we can't blame Valve. The community have been screaming for trading since it was first hinted during the Sniper/Spy update. If we had of told them we didn't want it, they wouldn't of implemented it. Because we demanded trading, we got trading.

As for the store, that was also something people have been suggesting for a while. The idea of being able to OPTIONALLY throw a few dollars at Valve for the hard work they've done seemed and still is, quite a nice idea. I'm enjoying myself as much as ever.

I know that they lowered the number of achieves, I was just agreeing with it. I know WHY they added the drop system and that's kind of my gripe with it. That already before all these items were released they knew they'd be releasing more and more items. These items are just filler.. there should have been 3-4 great unlocks for each class that either complimented the playstyle or opened up a new one (like the Kritzkrieg). The new unlocks seem to have lost any touch of special status other than looking different, they just all feel so 'meh'.

On the trading part, I agree with you there. We got what we asked for.. I just hate how the 12 year olds have taken it, bent it over, and are raping it repeatedly.

The store.. it's debatable. The reason I like it is that it helps keep the game alive and keeps money coming into the game for VALVe. On the other hand, I just feel like they're going to keep adding filler items to cash in on the A.D.D. guys who just need to have that new item. Like the Rift crossover items not being craftable for 1-2 months (I forget) and having that 'Genuine' status tag. It's a great social experiment to see how far people will go for this stuff but I don't like how they went about it. A big thing is that they keep adding these new weapons that have these stupid +5% to this and -10% to that. The game was founded on such a strong foundation because each class was perfectly outlined. They each had their own set of weapons to deal with each situation. Now there are so many weapons that it's just stupid, imo.

TL;DR
TF2 needs to get back to its roots in simplicity. It's gone too far overboard to be saved.

[NovaSilisko]

I, to be as honest as possible, quit tf2 and set fire to my hard drive the moment it paired up with such a horrifying, furry game as Sam and Max. I'm really, really unhappy that Valve stooped to such sexual deprivation. I checked it out in December, to give it another chance. I took one look at the heavy's new means of masturbation (Bear claws) and began slapping the monitor with my 12 inch cock until it burst into flame.

Game Of The Year? More like game of the YIFF.

Bugs Bunny would like a word with you.

[Insani99999]

This game has sucked ever since Mann Co came out.

Too many hats, too many hard to get weapons / hats that can be bought through store. Too many hats that can ONLY be bought through store, too many hats.  

Edit:

I, to be as honest as possible, quit tf2 and set fire to my hard drive the moment it paired up with such a horrifying, furry game as Sam and Max. I'm really, really unhappy that Valve stooped to such sexual deprivation. I checked it out in December, to give it another chance. I took one look at the heavy's new means of masturbation (Bear claws) and began slapping the monitor with my 12 inch cock until it burst into flame.

Game Of The Year? More like game of the YIFF.

Bugs Bunny would like a word with you.

Here are the rules for how you engage a troll:

Rule 1: Do not engage the troll
Rule 2: Do not give any attention to the troll
Rule 3: Rule 2

[Zarkith]

Too many hats, too many hard to get weapons / hats that can be bought through store. Too many hats that can ONLY be bought through store, too many hats.  

Do you mean the very same hats that have no effect on gameplay? (I think it's only a matter of time until polycount hats are removed from the set requirements)
The very same hats that are all for sale in the store as an option for those who don't have the patience to find them ingame, craft them, or trade for them?

Why yes, there are many of those hats in the game.