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[MegaMew]

Me and my brother make levels that we enjoy playing and beating, even if it takes a while to do so.

Anyway, the level editor requires you to pass the levels you make, so no one will EVER be allowed to complain about levels being 'impossibly hard'.

Impossibly hard =/= impossible.  Impossibly hard would be Gentle Rain difficult, where impossible would be a stage where you spawn in a box of spikes.

[Patashu]

You know I'm using it as a pejorative.

IMHO if someone's good enough to pass their levels to put them on the portal they deserve to do so.

[MegaMew]

I totally agree and like I said before, once the little people have easy access to the level editor I'm sure the drought of easy-regular hard levels will end.

[sh00takai]

Regarding the levels I've made this far, the hard difficulty probably rises from the fact that I've played too much games like IWBTG and Jumper. After playing games that demand extremely precise controls and a lot of trial and error, I've kinda become blind to the difficulty I'm adapted to. Good thing is that there are people who make a noise about it, because it has definitely made me wake up and realize that not everyone is a platform masochist.

For now, I may need to make two versions of every level before I find a balanced way to create routes and traps. That way I can freely create the first version of every map and label it as the tough challenge and try to make the second one focus much more on fun and bigger replay value. It will be hard, but I'll try to evolve in these things.

[RockLeeSmile]

It seems rather apparent to me that the people making the hard levels are the people who want to challenge themselves. If you cared enough to figure out dev mode, then you probably got most of what was on offer in the retail game and wanted to see where you could go next with the curve. I personally was interested in finding new and different ways to make a level difficult, when possible.

I was under the impression that people who really got into this game wanted to push their skills and dexterity to the very limit. I guess that's not 100% accurate, or those same people are taking the scenic route to the end. I do know a bunch of people who just never finished the game too, is that part of it?

[HybridStars]

The sad thing is that I can't make artistic designs for the levels, only making them difficult is what I can do 

[Stevolutionary]

It seems rather apparent to me that the people making the hard levels are the people who want to challenge themselves. If you cared enough to figure out dev mode, then you probably got most of what was on offer in the retail game and wanted to see where you could go next with the curve. I personally was interested in finding new and different ways to make a level difficult, when possible.

I was under the impression that people who really got into this game wanted to push their skills and dexterity to the very limit. I guess that's not 100% accurate, or those same people are taking the scenic route to the end. I do know a bunch of people who just never finished the game too, is that part of it?

Well, I just feel there's two schools of design here - evolution and revolution.

The evolutionary designers take the game and try to move it along natural lines by ramping up the difficulty and complexity past Cotton Alley Dark. This is fine as a form of self-expression/challenge, but all i'm trying to say is it will only attract a niche audience.

The revolutionary designers try to keep difficulty fair, yet look to create new elements that were not in the game, and I personally feel this is a much more interesting route, and one that will attract more people.

I've A+'d everything, including all 80 Internets levels, and even i'm sick of hardcore levels, and want new experiences. What frustrates me about some of the fan levels are they do have revolutionary elements (such as your invisible blocks and mountain climbing stage RockLeeSmile, and your trap filled Bomberman stage Sh00takai) but they get wrapped up in such an alienating package that I think it's a bit of a tragedy they won't find a bigger audience due to difficulty.

I just feel with the excellent art and design you guys have produced, more people deserve to find them accessible.

[Psychopath]

I have a few intuitive designs that I want to try out immediately once the level editor hits (it's a bit late to get acquainted to -devmode now that we know the portal and editor are very close).

By intuitive, I mean that I am going to fiddle around with ways that certain entities interact or at least are capable of interacting and then putting a spin on them in a way that has not yet been explored in-depth, fleshing the interaction between objects out into full-blown stages (fireballs & portals are an easy to name example of object interaction). For example, Edmund made a statement on these forums about how he did not truly get a chance to mess around with the concept of moving fans, at least not in-depth. There were I believe 2 stages in Teh Internets that utilized that, only one of which actually affected the player. I am striving to fiddle around as much as possible for untapped potential.

I don't exactly intend on making my stages rip-out-you-hair difficult, but a more casual difficulty. Then the untapped mechanics can be utilized by more skilled and more sadistic level designers for whatever they see fit.

I'm rambling now, but I'll wrap it up. I have ideas, I don't want to make them too hard so I'll let other people recycle the concepts and make them hard on their own.

[sh00takai]

I don't exactly intend on making my stages rip-out-you-hair difficult, but a more casual difficulty. Then the untapped mechanics can be utilized by more skilled and more sadistic level designers for whatever they see fit.

Exactly what I thought at the point I started creating maps in devmode. Not that I don't trust your words, it's just somehow very natural to make a few extra twists in the map to make it challenging enough for you. It's a bit like playing Minecraft, where you initially plan to build nothing but a small house but somehow end up creating a huge building plus a very detailed garden, a mining shaft complex and an animal farm.

Anyway, without traps that truly test your limits, maps turn out somehow very boring to repeat over and over again, at least in the beginning where you test them a lot. But, I guess that for many level creators, including me, the will to create ridiculously hard maps wears out at some point, just like grinding skill in Cotton Alley levels did / does.

[RockLeeSmile]

I am going to fiddle around with ways that certain entities interact or at least are capable of interacting and then putting a spin on them in a way that has not yet been explored in-depth, fleshing the interaction between objects out into full-blown stages (fireballs & portals are an easy to name example of object interaction).

Only problem is there are hardly any objects that DO interact other than the one you mentioned.

For the most part they just go through each other... you can't even have a key fall on a moving platform, it just doesn't work. I had similar ideas and when I sat down to experiment I found that the majority of what there is to be showcased (aside from some little derivations) can already be found in the retail game levels (I mean, just when it comes to object interaction). It was a rather disappointing revelation...

The one thing that you may find useful to know is that Lava Balls do bounce off moving platforms, so you can use the movers as a sort of shutter to direct their bounces. The only down side is the collision physics for the Lava Balls are somewhat crude, so half the time if they have too much velocity, they will just go through things completely, or not observe the edges of blocks properly. On top of that, you can only have a pretty small number of them on screen at a time before they stop spawning. I know this because I made a "Plinko" level where you had to climb a series of posts with Lava Balls randomly falling around you. The concept was a failure so it never saw light.

Sorry to be a buzz-kill ().

[soad667]

I do know a bunch of people who just never finished the game too, is that part of it?

Hehe yeah, it's weird when i look at my leaderboards. A lot of my friends haven't got the patience to even finish the first chapter. And i believe the majority of players out there probably find SMB really hard. Well, on the other hand, don't let that discourage you. More levels accessible to more people is nice, but of course we need hard levels, keep making them if you feel like it.

[Blizzaga Lantean]

I don't even know how levels are being designed in the first place since the Level Editor isn't out yet. :/

[MegaMew]

What frustrates me about some of the fan levels are they do have revolutionary elements (such as your invisible blocks and mountain climbing stage RockLeeSmile, and your trap filled Bomberman stage Sh00takai) but they get wrapped up in such an alienating package that I think it's a bit of a tragedy they won't find a bigger audience due to difficulty.

I just feel with the excellent art and design you guys have produced, more people deserve to find them accessible.

Lets just steal all their inventive ideas and make them easier! 

[RockLeeSmile]

I don't even know how levels are being designed in the first place since the Level Editor isn't out yet. :/

Really? I thought it was pretty much out there for everyone since Team Meat even blogged about dev mode. Go read up I suppose.

Man that must be really confusing for you since there's a whole sub-forum for level editing.

[Leiche]

My levelsets never had a hard difficulty.
I feel insulted by the OP.